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Thermodynamic's Reduce to Energy Management 4 please! (First Whine)

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Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:17:00 - [1] Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:26:00 - [2] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... What's your point? They use cruisers and battleships to attract new players too and it's not like you can fly thm instantly. I reiterate: not everything should be available to n00bs. Oh, and Ajulutsikeal above is me too. Damn forums picking my alt as default. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:41:00 - [3] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. Still not seeing a problem with that. Not all specialist skills should be quick to train for, and 'heat' particularly is quite specialized in my opinion. I'm pleased to finally see a new facet of EVE that not only has reasonably high entry prerequisites, but that those prerequisites are also worth training in the first place and not just insane timesinks like Advanced Spaceship Command for example. So it takes a n00b a couple of months to get the ability to use heat. So what? Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:45:00 - [4] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. But yet they will be advertising it, to attract new players.... What's your point? They use cruisers and battleships to attract new players too and it's not like you can fly thm instantly. I reiterate: not everything should be available to n00bs. Oh, and Ajulutsikael above is me too. Damn forums picking my alt as default. Yes but they can also train up & use a battleship in their first month. The skills are streamlined so new players can get into a broader range of stuff. I dont think anyone would stay tih this game if they had to learn frigate V to be able to fly a cruiser. Sure, if you had to get frig V to fly cruisers that would suck, but 'heat' to me has always felt more like a T2 level ability rather than a T2 level ability and as such should have entry requirements commensurate with that level. Oh, and while a one or two month old character may be able to get in a BS, they won't be able to use it worth a damn. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:49:00 - [5] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Alex Tremayne Sorry. I have no sympathy. EM 5 is one of those 'must have' skills I'm afraid and you should get it anyway. Plus, not all new content should be available instantly to low SP characters. Suck it up. Shouldn't be available 'instantly' as you say. but it should not take extreme amounts of time either. LV4 as requirements is fine, that means that will probably end up investing about 1-2 weeks of time, which is feasible for a newer 1-month-1 1/2 months is not as feasible. Still not seeing a problem with that. Not all specialist skills should be quick to train for, and 'heat' particularly is quite specialized in my opinion. I'm pleased to finally see a new facet of EVE that not only has reasonably high entry prerequisites, but that those prerequisites are also worth training in the first place and not just insane timesinks like Advanced Spaceship Command for example. So it takes a n00b a couple of months to get the ability to use heat. So what? Heat is not a mini-profession, I dont see you being a professional as 'oh **** im going to die, lets blow out my guns so i have a chance to save my ass. To use your analogy: I see it as you being a professional enough engineer to have the abilty to even think about doing it without blowing your ship up. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Ajulutsikael No. Everyone with 5 mil SP and any sense at all should already have those skills anyway. You are being sarcastic, right? No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. That is strange because on every single message board I have seen where a noob asks for advice, the Vets always forgot to mention that Energy Management 5 should be one of the very first thing you train. Well until now.... But i guess it is easier to remember when there is an agenda attached to the advice. Have you ever seen me post on one of those boards? No? Good, cause if you had, someone would have been stealing my account to do so. :P Sorry to burst your bubble but I've always given this advice to new members of my corp and I'm currently mocking the members of my corp and alliance on our internal forums who are whinging about the exact same thing as you, so there is no agenda here. I am genuinely surprised that people don't regard EM 5 as worth training, the attitude baffles me. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Hasak Rain I am not saying it isn't worth training. I think it is a very good skill to get. However, a newer player who has a stack of skills piling up just so he can fly something like a Cruiser or a BC effectively isn't going to want to take 3 weeks out of that training to do this. If he does, he is pushed even further behind. And I'm saying that 'heat' is not and should not be new player content. I understand that many people here disagree, but to me it does come across as the sort of thing that only experienced pilots should be trying. Originally by: Hasak Rain Whatever you tell your corpmates is fine but I never seen anyone tell anyone on this board or any other that EM 5 is a "must get" as soon as possible. Especially never seen it said to a newer player. I don't doubt you, I've not looked at those boards for years so I can't comment but sentiment in this thread seems to bear you out on that point. I just don't happen to agree with you. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Alex Tremayne No, I'm being serious. They might not be flashy uberpwn skills but there is no measure for how useful EM 5 has been for me and I would recommend any new character to get it trained as high ss possible as soon as possible. Over what? Frig/cruiser 5? t2 medium weapons? Decent nav skills? t2 tanking skills? Learning skills? There is a point where (without heat) EM5 is time/effect wise a good idea to train. At 4.4 mil SP this point is by far not there yet though. Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. I'm aware that this makes me a lone voice in the wilderness. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Cpt Fina The required skills for TD are fine imo. What should be shanged is the UI for when you haven't trained the skill yet. They should change the UI for when you have too. Damn but it takes up space. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. I'm aware that this makes me a lone voice in the wilderness. So your telling me when you was a noob, you trained all them skills before you moved to a cruiser, get real.... On this character? No, and I regretted it. On my second character, (now around 20mil SP) I learned from my mistakes and didn't train cruisers until I had 8mil SP rounding out all the Eng/Elec/Nav/Mech support skills. The support skills are so much more important than learning new shiny ships and guns. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Alex Tremayne Personally? I wouldn't recommend a new character move from destroyers to cruisers without getting engineering, electronics and both cap skills to 5 and most of the rest of the engineering and basic electronics skills to 4. Oh and the seven non jump drive related navigation skills to at least 4, and if Caldari getting the shield hp and shield recharge skills to 5 too. So about 5 mil SP at least. That's off the top of my head so I've almost certainly missed things there. And zero weapon skills and zero learning skills. No armortanking skills either. Sounds VERY effective So I missed some stuff as I said thought I had. Mea culpa. When I created my combat alt I didn't move from destroyers to cruisers until I had about 8 mil SP including all the advanced learning to 4, (which of course I recommend that anyone trains first :P) Obviously training of frigates and destroyers and their weapons is important too, but they were somewhat secondary for me and I didn't find my effectiveness reduced in that regard. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Mica Swanhaven Mica says... so you want Thermodynamics to be a rank 5 skill? will that make you happy? Rank 5 works for me. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord Loom Edited by: Lord Loom on 20/06/2007 12:28:12 Edited by: Lord Loom on 20/06/2007 12:26:48 Originally by: Alex Tremayne So I missed some stuff as I said thought I had. Mea culpa. When I created my combat alt I didn't move from destroyers to cruisers until I had about 8 mil SP including all the advanced learning to 4, (which of course I recommend that anyone trains first :P) Obviously training of frigates and destroyers and their weapons is important too, but they were somewhat secondary for me and I didn't find my effectiveness reduced in that regard. just a question, what did you do with that char in the months it took you to learn 8M SP "essential" support skills? Oh right, you had your main with a lot more SP already - what's the newbie with a handful of SP supposed to do while training all this oh so useful stuff to 5? Run level 1 missions? Mine in a Bantam? People wait for alts to "efficiently" train learning first, then everything they need towards a specific goal, but you're deluded if you think they will sit around waiting for a half-year skillplan to finish on their first/only char - if they would follow your advice, there were even more newbies who would quit after 2 months out of sheer boredom get a clue, elitist jerk (not that I have any problem with the "heat" skill reqs, I loathe the implementation of this long-hyped feature with a passion, I'm happy that I can't use it, now all I want is that they remove the UI clutter for people who don't train to use it) Actually I used the alt to low/nosec pirate in rifters and thrashers because at the time this character was in ISS and I needed a PvP fix that wasn't fleet warfare. It was good fun and I enjoyed it a lot and it gave me valuble practice. To be fair I'm not going to be training heat either, I see it as a niche skill at best and a true liabilty at worst and it's already completely buggered my UI. I still don't think it should be easy to learn though. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Hasak Rain Quite a few complaints about Heat messing up the UI but I sort of like the new look. If you can't use it, it doesn't really change much except the look. It takes up more space along the bottom of the screen where I keep other things, and it makes it difficult to see if the modules are active or not. I want rid of it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Hasak Rain Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: Hasak Rain Quite a few complaints about Heat messing up the UI but I sort of like the new look. If you can't use it, it doesn't really change much except the look. It takes up more space along the bottom of the screen where I keep other things, and it makes it difficult to see if the modules are active or not. I want rid of it. I don't have that problem. Maybe it is your resolution? Unlikely. I'm on 1920 by 1200, and I'm not out of room by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that the module buttons now take up more room than they did with a worthless gimmick I'm never going to use. I want the option to be rid of it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:35:00 - [17] Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:49:00 - [18] Originally by: La Tortura Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: La Tortura What I want to say is that newer people shouldn't have prohibitive skill restrictions just to have a chance to test the basic functionality of the game. And yes, the Heat is a very basic functionality, it is on the splash place of the interface. How does one lead to the other? Just because CCP buggered up the UI again does not make heat 'basic functionality'. It just makes the UI buggered up. Again. Whatever, it can be used in any ship in the game, on almost any active module, regardless of player specialisation. This is def basic functionality. It's usable on any ship, sure. It's worth using on a very limited set of modules in an even more limited set of circumstances and stands a good chance of doing quite a lot of damage to your ship if you don't know what you're doing. It's a piece of niche funtionality that has been indiscriminately bolted onto the UI in a rather annoying way that you can't get rid of. New players should not be using it, they will only get themselves killed and/or lose themselves ISK. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 13:53:00 - [19] Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Alex Tremayne Originally by: torswin I dont really see the problem. Energy Management 5 is a VERY good skill to have anyway, 'cause everyone should have maxed cap skills imo... In combat that's the one that keeps you alive you know :) stage whispers I've been telling them that, but they aren't listening. Posting that there are good reasons for it to be a high req skill doesn't seem to wash on this thread. If you're experienced then they label you a vet and you're just trying to fck over the n00bs. If you're inexperienced then who cares what you think?! Clearly only the OP and those supporting him have a point. Yes I tried a constructive post first but they ignored that so I think i'll just add basic weight to saying, no, leave the skill req as it is. Don't fold to whining CCP. I too have tried to be constructive, but it's not got me anywhere. To be honest I wish CCP never wasted their time on heat and instead spent it giving us the decent, configurable UI that EVE has been lacking for some time. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:35:00 - [21] Originally by: MotherMoon oh and eris Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Posted - 2007.06.20 14:05:00 We actually appreciate all sorts of feedback as long as it is constructive, if people can explain why they dislike a certain feature it tells us something and we can take into account Smile" so you better be reading these I certainly hope so. I hope CCP takes notice of those of us supporting them against the whiners in desiring that some things not be n00b-friendly, and that more importantly that they please, for the love of God, overhaul the damned UI. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 14:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus About Heat being a specialised thing not for noobs: as pointed out, the fact that it's implanted on everyone's UI says otherwise. As I've pointed out, it means nothing of the sort. It just means that CCP have buggered up the UI with non configurable stuff taking up more space. Again. Originally by: Deschenus Maximus That is however a fairly minor point compared to the fact that everyone WILL use it. Are you seriously going to tell me you aren't going to overload you MWD to get away when you fall in a bubble camp? I beg to differ. It's a gimmick that CCP wasted valuble time and resources on that is going to get many people to kill themselves by accident. Until it becomes more than that, I won't even be training it, let alone using it. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Na'Kunni Energy Management, as I keep saying, but nooo everyone thinks you should use that extra time training just for the extra 5% cap that a cap recharger/power relay can do, but your saying any respectable pilot should have energy managment 5 is rather crazy. Any respectable pilot should be carrying a Capacitor Booster. Simple as that, you don't need that extra 5% cap/4% recharge.... Either change the skill requirement, or change the actual skill needed to train TD... For PvP? Sure, a cap booster is nigh on essential sadly, though I do wish CCP would nerf cap boosters hand-in-hand with nerfing Nos. For PvE though, where a sustainable tank is desired and carrying cap charges is just plain inconvenient, then EM V is just too damn useful. Even in PvP, having a bigger cap pool means that maybe you don't need to use as many of your limited number of 800 charges in a particular fight, meaning you can have one more engagement before having to restock. It's all useful. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:34:00 - [24] Originally by: James Duar And at any rate - no one is going to use heat for PvE. No kidding? I'd never have worked that out if you hadn't told me. Some of us PvPers do however do PvE to make cash to buy our shiny ships and mods for PvP. PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort
Alex Tremayne Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.20 15:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Na'Kunni Originally by: Gladia Horusthu How about we keep the skill requirements where they are at? I recycled my vet character, so I don't have those skills yet. But I can promise you that every one of those skills is WORTH IT just for its own sake. Energy Management 5 for 5% more cap than level 4? Cmon, in battle cap = life. If you are anticipating using the heat feature, you should be making a beeline for this anyway. Science 4? Infomorph Psychology. You pewpew, you should want this skill too for rapid deployment. Engineering 5? A must to fit the best you can on your ship. Not one of those skills is "wasted." There are a lot of other skills with prereqs that make me mad as hell at having to train them, but these make sense, in my opinion. S In battle cap means life, where do cap boosters come into the equastion, $%!"ú to everyone saying energy management 5 is a required skill, it isnt, it does fine at lvl 4. I wish peopel would actually read the thread before posting And I wish you'd accept that quite a few of us disagree with you and your opinions. Stating that 'cap boosters mean you don't need EM 5' over and over again is not going to actually make us believe you when we've all generally found that not to be the case. Lyrus Associates' Diplomat Of Last Resort

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